Modernist-sympathizer: “4) the church is world-wide, not simply European. In its missionary activities, it operates often under hostile conditions and so needs to prudently adopt to the given environment in order to best preach the gospel, which is after all, its primary mission. Until/unless mass conversion in a given society occurs, the church’s minority position precludes it from having any kind of dominant voice in those societies.”
Response: I don’t know what this has to do with anything.
Modernist-sympathizer: “5) the lessons of World War II, especially the persecution of Jews, has awakened a different consciousness about human rights, and the rights to certain Jeffersonian inalienable rights, including freedom of conscience (properly understood)”
Response: Modernism.
In fact, this is eerily reminiscent of what Fr. Murray argued, namely, that a different “experience” of Catholics in the United States needed to inform the Church’s teaching and that this “American experience” goes against Pope Leo XIII’s teaching, which Murray claimed did not apply to the U.S. Anyway, the experience of history has absolutely nothing to do with Catholic teaching. It’s modernist to say that the Church’s teachings are conditioned by historical facts.
Modernist-sympathizer: “6) most countries today are pluralistic, especially in religion, where the idea of a state religion (catholic in some countries, protestant in others) always creates tension. Pius XII recognized this when he said the church can “tolerate” separation of church and state in order to insure peace, prevent religious quarrels and persecution of the church, until such time (with God’s will) a “rightly ordered”(meaning catholic) can be established and catholic social principles made the will of society;”
Response: No disagreement here.
Modernist-sympathizer: “7) the church condemns forced conversions. ”
Response: Of course. But this has nothing to do with anything.
Modernist-sympathizer: “Even where the church is a numerical majority, steps to oppress false religions often backfire and create more harm than good”
Response: It’s a gratuitous assertion, and I deny it just as gratuitously.
Modernist-sympathizer: “8) the church always operates best in societies where it is free, where catholics can openly freely practice their religion. This is all the church insists upon. Let those who are outside her fold be led to truth of the gospel by the grace given by God to convert.”
Response: False. You are denying Catholic teaching. The dogmatic theologian Adolphe Tanquerey makes clear: “…the error of Catholic Liberals is deservedly condemned, because they contend that full liberty is to be given to everyone and that error is to be repressed only by an exposition of truth” (Manual of Dogmatic Theology, vol. 1). You are putting forth Liberalism, (Modernist). You see, it’s all nothing new here. These are old errors, that’s all. You may think you (or whoever concocted this) may have come up with a “solution” here but all it really shows is that you are not familiar with the subject matter.
Modernist-sympathizer: “9) Jacinta of Fatima was told by our Lady that “whatever nation gives freedom to our holy religion will be blessed by God”…”
Response: Blessed, for example, by mass conversions to Catholicism, the Catholicism which, by the way, teaches that the ideal is a state indirectly subject to the Church, and that separation of church and state is an evil which is to be condemned, though it may be tolerated under certain conditions. We’re talking here about a nation which moves from oppressing the Church to not oppressing the Church. If Our Lady says such a nation will be blessed by God, then obviously it’s for suddenly granting freedom to the Church, and not for insisting on separation of church and state or any other error it may still hold. Seriously, you Novus Ordos twist and turn everything the way you need to have it to justify that apostate institution in Rome, it disgusts me. By the time you have to invoke an apparition, even an approved one, to give credence to your theory, you know you’re not doing theology. Didn’t I already tell you, (Modernist), that you weren’t going by principle? See what I mean?
So, again, these are old errors, not new “tactics.” Pete, do some reading on the issue. Msgr. Fenton had some heated exchanges with the modernist Fr. Murray. Had Pope Pius XII not died in 1958, Murray would have probably been condemned by name, as well as Jacques Maritain, because the Holy Office was already perparing condemnations.
If what you have expressed here, (Modernist), is indeed the Vatican’s own understanding of Dignitatis Humanae, then you have shown once more that indeed the teaching has changed, and that the Vatican very much adheres to an old error, that of Catholic Liberalism. It is, then, a vindication of sedevacantism. Thanks!
